ttxela
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15 years ago
😞 the other photo's in the Youds gallery are much better than mine!

Does the other entrance still exist and someone have their own private way in from their garden or was the concreting over threat carried out? I didn't spot another entrance from the inside?
royfellows
15 years ago
Fascinating!

I used to do this trip solo quite regularly in the 1990s, check out my pictures.

Anyway, what are we going to do about the duplicate entries?

I would, (with respect to the Derbyshire experts, my ‘turf’ is mid Wales) suggest one entry under my original Ringing Rake and Masson Sough/ Alternative name Youds Level, including Gentlewoman’s Mine, Old Jant Mine, Queens Mine etc……….
Or similar to the above

What does everyone think?

My avatar is a poor likeness.
staffordshirechina
15 years ago
I have a photo of a group of us after an early exploration trip and the date on the back is Autumn 1976. From memory, we had finished the Wills Founder engine recovery by September of that year and it was about then that we found out about the sough. Again from memory, Lynn Willies had been going to the ironmongers in Matlock quite a lot during the Wills Founder episode and several articles had been in the local paper. Stuart Youd worked at the ironmongers and told his story. Lynn eventually persuaded him to let us dig and we started early autumn 76. In the early days it was not possible to get through to Queen mine. However, Masson had not been destroyed by Laporte then and you could get through from the 50' Weeping Woman shaft all the way to the overseer chamber in Queens. Subsequent surveying plus digging forays from both sides eventually connected the two again. This meant that apart from a 50' shaft you could get right down from the top of the hill to river level with no tackle (nearly 700feet?) This surveying also rediscovered various other features including the beautiful hand-picked shaft (288 feet) at the inbye end of the coffin levels that was used for access at an early NAMHO conference
historytrog
15 years ago
Speaking of correct names, the reference to Old Jant Mine is incorrect, being a misreading in the Barmaster’s Books. It should be Old Tant, which is a local corruption of Old Anthony, one of the mine owners having been called Anthony. This is mentioned in a very detailed book on the history of the Matlock mines that I have written: it might even get published one day.
Brakeman
15 years ago
I too have only ever known this level to be called Youds level, never heard of the other names for the sough.

Only ever done the trip along it twice, once on my own in 1985 & the recent return trip in march of this year. It doesn't contain a lot of water but the narrowness of the coffin level makes for it to be quite hard going on the legs. It's a trip I certainly shall not be repeating ever again, I prefer to be able to stand up properley for the day. 😉
The management thanks you for your co operation.
staffordshirechina
15 years ago
ttxela,
When the present entrance in the car park was put in, we walled off and concreted the garden entrance up.
Recently there has been a problem with leaking sewers getting into the entrance part of the level. This has now been cured by the water authority and probably put even more cement around the area of the garden entrance so I doubt you could even tell where it was now.
Brakeman
15 years ago
Sougher, just saw your comment about this photo, made me laugh, it's a self photo, me in part of the very nicely hand picked coffin level. Now I'm only medium build I think and as you can clearly see it's a knees job along this part, there's not a lot of room...BUT can you imagine the amount of effort & toil actually driving these levels, day in day out for months on end, with poor ventillation and dust abound. I have to stop and really admire the miners of the time each & every time I am fortunate enough to see & record these very places, I find it quite humbling sometimes.

🔗Youds-Level-Lead-Mine-User-Album-Image-48911[linkphoto]Youds-Level-Lead-Mine-User-Album-Image-48911[/linkphoto][/link]
The management thanks you for your co operation.
ttxela
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15 years ago
"royfellows" wrote:

Fascinating!

I used to do this trip solo quite regularly in the 1990s, check out my pictures.

Anyway, what are we going to do about the duplicate entries?

I would, (with respect to the Derbyshire experts, my ‘turf’ is mid Wales) suggest one entry under my original Ringing Rake and Masson Sough/ Alternative name Youds Level, including Gentlewoman’s Mine, Old Jant Mine, Queens Mine etc……….
Or similar to the above

What does everyone think?



Cool with me Roy :thumbup:
AR
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15 years ago
"royfellows" wrote:

Fascinating!

I would, (with respect to the Derbyshire experts, my ‘turf’ is mid Wales) suggest one entry under my original Ringing Rake and Masson Sough/ Alternative name Youds Level, including Gentlewoman’s Mine, Old Jant Mine, Queens Mine etc……….
Or similar to the above

What does everyone think?



Although I'd personally prefer to have all mines on by their "proper" names you tend to find that people then duplicate the entry for the common-use name if they're not aware of the correct name. As this one is generally referred to as Youds, in much the same way that Whalf and Crimbo mines are generally known as Hillocks and Knotlow mines, I'd suggest the main entry should be as Youds level, with Ringing Rake/Masson sough/Gentlewoman's mine given as alternatives.
Follow the horses, Johnny my laddie, follow the horses canny lad-oh!
sougher
15 years ago
Brakeman - By coincidence I was just thinking similar thoughts about the early soughers as I looked through all the photos of Youds Level/Ringing Rake/Masson sough on both Mine sites. My caving son has been up this sough a few times but I didn't appreciate just how tight and long it was.

The soughers worked in tight, claustrophobic, wet, often bad air conditions for the minimum amount of money which was not paid weekly but on the reckoning system (the same as the lead miners) whereby they costed their price for the work in advance, this would be for a set period of anything from six to twelve weeks. They must have been a tough bunch of miners who in turn turned into soughers and adventurers, but the adventurers were mainly the larger lead mine owners and smelters who invested their money in driving the soughs to reach the remaining lead deposits left beneath the water table when workable deposits started to run out in the 17th & 18th centuries. A lot of money could be made or lost through this kind of enterprise, which accounts for when I was young a common expression in Derbyshire when people wasted their money was to say that "they'd thrown their money down a sough!". In the early narrow soughs the mining method was mostly hand drilling (from memory gunpowder for blasting was introduced into Ecton around 1670 wasn't it?) often through hard barren rock such as the "toadstone" beds (volcanic rocks such as basalt, dolerite) also shales (Hillcarr sough is a very good example of this with additional costing for gritstone lining the walls and roof of the sough when driven through the shales which also produced gas and on one occasion caused an explosion and deaths). The "toadstones" separate the Matlock limestones, this is why the sough passages are "coffin" shaped, they took out the bare minimum of rock to save on their costings for the work. Another thing we forget is that people in years gone by were of smaller statute and would have fitted into these narrow passages better than present day mine explorers.

Nellie Kirkham always told me that Derbyshire lead miners who moved abroad to work, were renowned for their drainage expertise in the use of tunnels, whereas Cornish miners were renowned for their engines.

p.s. I know of a much tighter and horrible trip, a crawl all the way over a flowstone floor on one's tummy - I was told it was like crawling over knife blades all the way. My old club "Op Mole" in the late 1950's explored Harvey Dale Tubes in Matlock, there was no standing whatsoever, no crawling on knees, just tummy and elbow work all the way to the end. Part of the way in they encountered and crossed the main drawing shaft of Seven Rakes Mine, the one driven in "toadstone" which is one of the very few reported cases in the Derbyshire lead field (the Queen's/King's Field) of lead veins being found and worked in the "toadstone". At the end of the Tubes my caving buddies had to singularly squiggle round in a minute chamber to turn to come out, one of the Group got stuck doing this manoeuvre, became panic stricken and couldn't move, eventually they made him strip down to his pants and pulled him out from the chamber by a sling losing my carabiner in the process, also tearing his skin badly but they got him out. I didn't go on this trip, I was left at the entrance to call out Cave Rescue in case of an accident! I think the entrance to this system has now been sealed!
ttxela
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15 years ago
Must get to the Jigging Box next time, I think young Summer was just having an off day, mind you it is a bit crawly beyond the coffin level.
Brakeman
15 years ago
"ttxela" wrote:

Must get to the Jigging Box next time, I think young Summer was just having an off day, mind you it is a bit crawly beyond the coffin level.



Yes a bit crawly it is , I lost the rubber pads off my tripod going up through some of that stuff, but the lad with me had a Nikon D60 dslr in his hand with him & it was in danger of getting busted so we retreated on this occasion, although I did go through to the muddy dig on my last trip in 1985, funny how it takes a lot less time to get out though!

The management thanks you for your co operation.
AR
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15 years ago
Sougher, is/was Harvey Dale tubes somewhere in the vicinity of Hall Dale and Cawdor quarries? I'm quite intrigued now, (although it doesn't sound the most inviting of trips) but wondered if it's now been lost to quarrying.

I was in the fireset coffin level in Owlet Hole mine the other day, which makes Ringing Rake sough look roomy - you have to pull yourself through it on your side...
Follow the horses, Johnny my laddie, follow the horses canny lad-oh!
sougher
15 years ago
AR - I will reply to you by private email as I don't want to give the exact location away. It's on private land and I wouldn't want any idiotic caver trying to access it and explore it if it's been sealed. A cave rescue would be impossible from it. I'll also email you a photo shewing the entrance, which incidently was the highest point. Believe me it was tighter than your crawl through the fireset sough of Owlet (ask Doug about it, he went up it). On reflection I suppose I shouldn't have mentioned it on AN. Please have patience for a day or two as I'm rather busy at the moment but will email you shortly.
derrickman
15 years ago
something of a digression, but the Combe Down project included an entry in someone's back garden which had the masonry re-set and repointed and a grille and ladder installed ( this was in the Byfields section which has been shot-creted and stabilised as a bat habitat )
''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.

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