davidmdj
  • davidmdj
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14 years ago

The motivation for mine exploration can lie anywhere between recreation and research. At one extreme is the fun and challenge of opening new routes and at the other is the slog work of making surveys and collecting data that help us to understand more of the way mines were worked and of the reasons contributing to their success or failure. An understanding of the geology is one essential component of this understanding.

At this latter extreme a simple question arises, why should geologically ‘amateur’ mine explorers collect geological data at all when the country is already covered by detailed geological maps made by professionals, ie academic and institutional geologists. Two reasons stand out: first, geology on maps is essentially only a 2D representation; perhaps 2-and-a-bit D in very rugged terrain; second, professionals, like the rest of us, are not imune from error. A true 3D picture of the subsurface is seldom fully attained by anybody but clearly the average inclination of a lode measured throughout a vertical depth of, say, 200 m in mine workings is more representative (and useful) than an estimate based on a surface outcrop of 2 m height (if one is lucky), particularly in glaciated country where bedrock may be disturbed. I know of many cases where the surface-based geology on ‘official’ maps is at variance with Victorian mine plans and there is no doubt that the latter are correct. There is also a question of scale; ‘official’ published maps are commonly at 1:50,000 scale whereas mine plans, ie what the mine historian needs, are commonly at 1:500 scale. One can add other reasons; some professionals are these days not always allowed to venture underground on HSE grounds; and again, subsurface accessibility is under constant threat and ‘amateur’ data today may be better than waiting for ‘professional’ data sometime in an uncertain future.

What I wish to argue below is that with very little ‘training’ the average mine explorer can collect geological data of real value for research purposes. The reasons for this opinion are:-
a) many explorers have developed a good sense of observation, if only for safety reasons. They watch for signs that roof rock may be unstable or that they may be walking on a false floor. Noticing that the appearance of rock is changing is the first step in asking ‘how / why ?’ and in deciding what may be worth measuring.
b) there are probably many more explorers than underground geologists. I have been fortunate to see mine workings that most geologists could not thanks to companionship (and SRT instruction) from experienced explorers but ultimately there will be places where young explorers can reach but which old geologists cannot. In these cases any data, provided it is sound, is better than none.
c) many explorers are already familiar with, or make, simple compass / tape surveys so scope for ‘added value’ by recording geological data is already there. If you have a compass suitable for such survey the only additional piece of equipment needed is a device for measuring inclinations (a clinometer).
d) much data of real value geologically is actually rather simple to record.


Rock strata, and mineral lodes, are not homogeneous; they contain internal fabrics relating either to compositional differences during their formation (eg sedimentary bedding) or to fracturing during later deformation (eg joints, faults). Surprisingly many of these fabrics are essentially planar like tiles of variable thickness and their orientation is thus simple to measure by recording their strike and dip. Strike is the orientation of the trace of a dipping surface (eg a lode or sedimentary bedding) where it intersects the horizontal, the maximum value of the dip is hence perpendicular to the strike. Strike and outcrop trace on a map thus coincide only if topography is flat or dip is vertical.

Assuming that some explorers fancy trying their hand at some basic geology, what advice can I give as to what / how to record observations of rock fabric. If possible try to do a trip with an experienced geologist and watch / ask questions. Most mine explorers know the difference between a cross-cut and a drift but try to pin down exactly what the observational basis for such belief might be – lack of mineralisation alone is not decisive, many lodes locally pinch out into barren ‘joints’. There is seldom need to record everything; learn to sample selectively focussing on regions where the rock type / fabric is clearly changing rapidly. Changes in rock type may be capable of being correlated with similar changes seen at surface, helping to build a 3D picture. Changes in lode fabric, eg ‘jogs’ in azimuth, may similarly be correlatable between levels and are often prime controls on the attitude of ore ‘shoots’.At first keep it simple. Focus on the distinction between country rock and lode. Where features of either look unusually interesting or their interpretation would benefit from discussion with other explorers it is time to consider making some form of record. If so, I would recommend:
- photographs, better than nothing.
- photographs with a scale / orientation and in both close-up and more contextual view, better still.
- photographs as before but accompanied by notes (written at the time, not from memory), rather good.
- photographs as before but the notes additionally including a precise location (on a plan or in terms of distance / bearing from a known feature and spatial orientation data for the rock fabric photographed (and reference to any samples taken), top marks !

Your records, as with any data, are ultimately useless if kept private. I believe most if not all of the geological data that we can collect as mine explorers should be in the public domain without copyright restriction as an aid to future research. I have no expertise in data storage / dissemination but it seems to me that web-based facilities such as those pioneered by aditnow for mine photography may contribute towards this goal and I have written the above article in the hope of starting debate on these issues. Two obvious areas of interest might be:
- sharing of surveys containing geological data
- a forum for discussion of problems encountered in the identification of geological features, an idea put to me by Roy Fellows

David James
owd git
14 years ago
Thanks David, did you consider expanding your reach to the caving community? There has been a deal of interest at most new sectons 'opened' here in Derbys' especially see 'Water Icicle Close Caverns' threads on caving U K .
Again thanks for your post.
O. G.
AR
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14 years ago
A lot of food for thought there David, and although I look at old mines through an archaeologist's eyes, I agree that considering what the geology is doing is important to understanding why the mineral deposits have formed and the miners did as they did. One thing I'd add to what you've written is something I've observed underground, which is looking for a change of the gangue minerals in a vein as you approach a significant change in the geology, round here I've seen a marked shift from primarily calcite towards barytes and goethite/iron oxide as you get close to the top of a lava bed.

I get underground with geologists occasionally and it's interesting to hear what they see in the mine, I also get my brain picked by Trevor Ford whenever we meet about features I've seen underground....
Follow the horses, Johnny my laddie, follow the horses canny lad-oh!
Roger L
14 years ago
Very interesting. The old Huddersfield BGS Solid and Drift Map 77 has been upgraded in 2003 to show the Kirkburton Sandstone. When the previous one was done the mine surveyors told the BGS there was a 12ft fault at the mine round Box Ings. No notice was taken of the below ground advice.
When the new map was produced it was proved above ground by samples of the rock that the old mine surveyors were correct, hence the new map.
When surveying old dangerous properties we always tried to get inside to ascertain the full extent of the problem. The out side view did not always give the full picture. You have to get below ground to get the full picture there also.
Mine Lectures & Walks available for around Huddersfield
Manicminer
14 years ago
I always have a look at the geology when underground. I like to work out things in my head in 3D.

My information is of commercial value, so I keep it to myself for the time being 😉
Gold is where you find it
stuey
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14 years ago
I've been underground with professionals and amateurs alike.

I think that Geology is one of those subjects where there are amateurs of considerable calibre.

The problem with autodidacts is that their knowledge doesn't cover the "usual bases" covered by normal (particularly modern) courses.

As far as I'm concerned, I have a right (authorised by me) to further my learning and as long as I cause no loss or harm to anyone else, the statist control freaks can foxtrot oscar.
Graigfawr
14 years ago
"Isabel Gott" wrote:

Very interesting. The old Huddersfield BGS Solid and Drift Map 77 has been upgraded in 2003 to show the Kirkburton Sandstone. When the previous one was done the mine surveyors told the BGS there was a 12ft fault at the mine round Box Ings. No notice was taken of the below ground advice.
When the new map was produced it was proved above ground by samples of the rock that the old mine surveyors were correct, hence the new map.
When surveying old dangerous properties we always tried to get inside to ascertain the full extent of the problem. The out side view did not always give the full picture. You have to get below ground to get the full picture there also.



Had similar experience with the BGS: despite being a degreed geologist my suggestions during revision of a mid Wales 1:50,000 sheet that there were significant features both visible underground as well as shown with considerable clarity on abandoned mine plans that would merit consideration for potential incusion were sneered at.

The recent publications of David James in BM volumes are considerably more detailed and of vastly greater utility than modern BGS offerings for the same locations.
Alasdair Neill
14 years ago
Certainly agree that recent BGS mapping in some cases would be very different if they had access to detail from underground exposure. The margin of the granite in the Godolphin area is well exposed underground & is significantly different from depicted on the recent 1:50,000 map. Also sometimes some BGS staff seem to stray into areas they know little about & come up with conclusions which sound "strange" to say the least, for instance regarding caves in the recent Plymouth sheet memoir. I guess there is always going to be a certain bias towards the interests & experience of the particular staff involved.
Re dissemination of surveys etc., there is always the problem of making sites aware to "those from the dark side" (to quote a well known mining geologist) & the resulting plundering of sites for minerals etc.
Some years ago I compiled a list of all known surveys for sites in Devon & Cornwall, copies held by DCUC & for the NAMHO research framework & Cornwall Council archaeologists, but would really think this should not be available freely over the web. However it would probably be useful for similar lists to be compiled for other areas, perhaps through the BCA regional councils.
royfellows
14 years ago
I first started mine exploration as a purely leisure activity when in my late teens, it lapsed for a number of years and then restarted when I was in my 40s. Again, it was more of a ‘boy’s own adventure’ than anything serious.

As I got older I began to appreciate other aspects of my pursuit, often accompanied by the old adventure thing that created the desire to open up workings not previously entered by modern explorers.

One only has to take on board a small amount of geological knowledge for a simple trial level, usually described as “ having nothing of interest” to suddenly take on a whole new meaning.

I would urge everyone who enjoys going underground to attempt to take on some of this knowledge, because trust me, it will greatly enhance your underground experience.

My avatar is a poor likeness.
Jeff
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14 years ago
Totally agree that " it will greatly enhance your underground experience." as Roy says.

I had been through the Seathwaite graphite mine many times as a "mine explorer" but it was only after visiting with B.G.S. and Spanish scientist...experts in Fluid Deposited Graphite that a whole new world of observations and interest was opened up to me.

I also accompanied the B.G.S. into the Coniston copper mines with a similar eye opening experience.
I have to say that we were lucky that the geologists had a personal interest in these mines and had a vast amount of local knowledge.

Jeff





grahami
14 years ago
I'll go with Roy on this one. Some knowledge of the geological aspects makes it all more interesting - it also helps with the interpretation of the old quarry surveys. (I can only speak wrt slate of course.)

Grahami
The map is the territory - especially in chain scale.
davidmdj
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14 years ago
Yes I'd agree

I do not advocate automatic dissemination to all and sundry; like most things it is a judgement.

Structural / stratigraphic geology results are fairly easy calls if the mine was clearly non-economic but equally mineralogical data of collector interest may need restricted circulation

davidmdj
davidmdj
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14 years ago
Thanks, glad some of my surveys are found useful !

Re BGS, there are two problems
1) willingness to listen
2) scale, the 1:50k maps cannot give 'mine plan' detail

Only in the first case can one complain I deem. Do you know if BGS officers are ALLOWED below grass, I know CCW are not (officially) on HSE grounds

davidmdj
davidmdj
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14 years ago
I'm not sure on which side of the fence you classify me but trust you place me with the angels
davidmdj
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14 years ago
Yes that is exactly the type of observation of potential research value, I trust the mineralogists are providing an explanation
davidmdj
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14 years ago
One day perhaps,

I'm a bit ancient for caving SRT however !
ChrisJC
14 years ago
"davidmdj" wrote:

Do you know if BGS officers are ALLOWED below grass,



I would suggest that if not, it's a pretty serious omission!

Chris.
AR
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14 years ago
"davidmdj" wrote:

Do you know if BGS officers are ALLOWED below grass, I know CCW are not (officially) on HSE groundsdavidmdj



I don't know about going underground as part of work, but I've been down several mines with Richard Shaw.
Follow the horses, Johnny my laddie, follow the horses canny lad-oh!
Jeff
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14 years ago
With ref. to whether B.G.S staff can go "under grass" I think it depends on the importance of the project/research and technical papers that may follow, etc. The Seathwaite graphite mine project was a classic example. Spanish scientist input with government grants, and a unsolved graphite origin. Every relevant organization had to be contacted and I know it was a long and tedious process. A risk assessment had to be done which I was involved in, then the geologists had to "sell it" with senior management. I still find it hard to believe that in this mad world of litigation it went ahead but pleased that these professional people were prepared to trust others and take on possible objective risks in the interest of science.

Any incident underground however could change the rules very quickly.

Jeff
droid
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14 years ago
The Spanish attitude may be a little different, ref the Gran Dolina excavations in Norhern Spain.... 😉

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