Radon and mine exploration.· Page 3

Trewillan
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13 years ago

"stuey" wrote:

As to Radon............. (that's how I understand it).

S

Best explanation I've ever heard!

Ties in with previous comments that damage is caused by the Radon daughters, inhaled or created by decay of Radon gas in the lung.

lozz
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13 years ago

#42

"tomh" wrote:
As I understand it the bad radon sticks to stuff like dust/cigarette smoke.
Could you wear a builders type dust mask to protect yourself?

Although better than nothing your standard issue builders dusk masks are next to useless, for decent dust filtration I have always found that uncomfortable as they are a proper full fiiting cartridge mask is more effective, with the correct filter cartridge fitted that is. For sawdust and stuff an airflow mask/hemet are good too provided you maintain/replace the filters properly.

Lozz.

Alasdair Neill
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13 years ago

#43

There were quite a few published papers around from about the 1970's about the issues of radon in the then working Cornish mines.
Derbyshire is well known as a radon hotspot, Tony Revell once told me most of his family were spar miners and most died of cancer.
Recently been talking to someone who worked underground for Glebe Mines but had enough after dealing with two fatal accidents in a workforce of about 40. that would have been many years ago I guess.

exspelio
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13 years ago

#44

I suspect the deaths where in the late '80's, early '90's, in Sallet hole, I worked down there from 1980 to 1987 and no body died underground during that time, the workforce was bigger too.
I know a couple of guys got killed not long after I retired injured.
The radon "hot spots" were mostly associated with toadstone beds and a disproportionate number of ex-Ladywash men died from cancer-related conditions.
I worked in Sallet Hole and the 09's crosscut was driven through toadsone, an evil feeling place, workers in that section were given photo sensitive slides in little sealed plastic containers to wear in an attempt to measure exposure over the time they worked in there, these were then sent up for evaluation - we were never given the results, even though I was safety rep at the time!

Always remember, nature is in charge, get it wrong and it is you who suffers!.

stuey
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13 years ago

#45

Those exposure "films" are interesting things.

I have a mate who works on dockyard submarines and we always thought it would have been interesting to leave them in S Terras for a week or so and then see if any eyebrows were raised.

ie:- whether everyone in the immediate area was ordered to eat their iodine pills!

somersetminer
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13 years ago

#46

interestingly these are being marketed by 3M Australia now
http://solutions.3m.com.au/wps/portal/3M/en_AU/PPE_SafetySolutions_APAC/Safety/Products/PoW-Product-Catalog/?PC_7_U00M8B1A00H970I56CN7OT26E7000000_nid=RTS8K6PLD9gsF3RH7CD92NglCW792MM0ZHbl

I have used air fed mask systems for shot blasting and they were a nuisance (although for sure the shot blasting room would have been pretty unpleasant without them!) I would hope these would be better designed
I am not sure I'll live to see the day they are used in Cornish mines!!

Trewillan
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13 years ago

#47

"somersetminer" wrote:
interestingly these are being marketed by 3M Australia now
http://solutions.3m.com.au/wps/portal/3M/en_AU/PPE_SafetySolutions_APAC/Safety/Products/PoW-Product-Catalog/?PC_7_U00M8B1A00H970I56CN7OT26E7000000_nid=RTS8K6PLD9gsF3RH7CD92NglCW792MM0ZHbl

I am not sure I'll live to see the day they are used in Cornish mines!!

You have possibly lived through that day already.

They were used at South Crofty 20-25 years ago. I think it was the union that made a fuss about Radon, and Airstream helmets were issued.

I don't think they were used for long. Not easy to smoke Park Drives while wearing one, so they were probably thrown into dark corners at the earliest opportunity.

exspelio
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13 years ago

#48

Ah yes, the positive pressure face mask, These are designed to slightly increase the pressure in front of the face so outside impediments are not breathed in.
To acheive this they must have an air intake somewhere, I have often wondered what kind of filtering this intake has on it?
In essence, you are breathing air that has gone through the fan, where does it come from? easy to exclude dust but gasses and radon particles? I doubt it.
Also, I think the sound of a fan buzzing around at the side of my head would be a little distracting.

Always remember, nature is in charge, get it wrong and it is you who suffers!.

Trewillan
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13 years ago

#49

"exspelio" wrote:
Ah yes, the positive pressure face mask, These are designed to slightly increase the pressure in front of the face so outside impediments are not breathed in.
To acheive this they must have an air intake somewhere, I have often wondered what kind of filtering this intake has on it?
In essence, you are breathing air that has gone through the fan, where does it come from? easy to exclude dust but gasses and radon particles? I doubt it.
Also, I think the sound of a fan buzzing around at the side of my head would be a little distracting.

The fan and filter and rechargeable battery are at the back of the helmet. Obvious from the shape. Alternative is a belt-worn filter and fan unit, connected by a short hose to the back of the helmet.

Different filters available depending on what sort of dust/gas/vapour you are dealing with.

Portable Radon meter traps particles on filter paper, so it can be done using the right filter material.

Another benefit of Airstream helmets is the cooling effect of the airflow across the face.

stuey
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13 years ago

#50

Since radon is an intert gas, it has a pretty small atomic diameter. This means it goes through most filter media. In fact, if you had something which trapped radon one side of it, it would probably require several tens of bar in pressure difference in order to be effective. In fact, consider the size of an N2 and O2 molecule, then compare with a radon atom....case closed!

The BQM^-3 rely on radon daughters being charged and sticking to a substrate, I suspect by having a porous compound which likes charged stuff. Then when you get your Bq reading, you correlate this with how much gas you have pulled through it. You assume there has been no significant decay between when you finished the test and all the stuff didn't get through. I imagine, like most radiation related things, it's a bit of a statistical fudge.

lozz
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13 years ago

#51

Those fan driven air wash helmets are great for sawmillers, that I can vouch, hanging on to a 303 jackleg at 90 degrees heat and 100% humidity I am not so sure, as to radon I am not really qualified to say as to what might or might not be effective, I know that staying out of mines and living in a tent would be a pretty safe bet?

Lozz.

Trewillan
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13 years ago

#52

"stuey" wrote:
Since radon is an intert gas, it has a pretty small atomic diameter. This means it goes through most filter media....

The BQM^-3 rely on radon daughters being charged and sticking to a substrate, I suspect by having a porous compound which likes charged stuff

That's right, Radon is a gas, the Radon daughters are solid particles. The Working Level Meter traps these on the filter paper and then reads the alpha and beta emissions as the daughters decay further. (IIRC A-level Physics!)

As you say, that is the easy bit.

exspelio
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13 years ago

#53

"lozz" wrote:
I know that staying out of mines and living in a tent would be a pretty safe bet?

Lozz.

Depends whether you're camping on granite or not 🙂

Always remember, nature is in charge, get it wrong and it is you who suffers!.

lozz
50.2% (Neutral)
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13 years ago

#54

"exspelio" wrote:

"lozz" wrote:
I know that staying out of mines and living in a tent would be a pretty safe bet?

Lozz.

Depends whether you're camping on granite or not :)

And how long for...... I think radon membranes etc are manditory in building regs down hear, not sure of the rest of the uk, in houses a lot is to due with ventilation so far as I am aware, my Vango Storm Ten had a sown in impervious ground sheet, good tent was that.

Lozz

exspelio
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13 years ago

#55

"lozz" wrote:

"exspelio" wrote:

"lozz" wrote:
I know that staying out of mines and living in a tent would be a pretty safe bet?

Lozz.

Depends whether you're camping on granite or not :)

I am aware, my Vango Storm Ten had a sown in impervious ground sheet, good tent was that.

Lozz

Impervious to what? I doubt Vango thought of radiation! :confused:

Always remember, nature is in charge, get it wrong and it is you who suffers!.

lozz
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13 years ago

#56

"exspelio" wrote:

"lozz" wrote:

"exspelio" wrote:

"lozz" wrote:
I know that staying out of mines and living in a tent would be a pretty safe bet?

Lozz.

Depends whether you're camping on granite or not :)

I am aware, my Vango Storm Ten had a sown in impervious ground sheet, good tent was that.

Lozz

Impervious to what? I doubt Vango thought of radiation! :confused:

As far as I know radon is a gas, the Vango Storm Ten Ground sheet was impervious to water, damp, gas, bugs, just about everything but flames, some acids/solvents, sharp protrusions and burrowing furry things with sharp gnashers....p*****g on the tent floor was a no no.

Lozz.

eastkern
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12 years ago

#57

I live in a village with one of the highest Radon ratings in the country. I have lived here for forty years and never heard of a death from lung cancer.
In fact if you look at a map of Radonoccurrences in Cornwall it has one of the highest ratings in the UK. But then compare said incidences in the county of Lung Cancer and it is about the lowest in the country.
Scientific evidence is largely based on exposure to Uranium miners over decades and is otherwise very tenuous. It's become an industry based on fear for money making companies. Forget it and breathe it in. I do every day and I'm 69.

ad289
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12 years ago

#58

An interesting video

dave_the_cave
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12 years ago

#59

"ad289" wrote:
An interesting video

Thanks

Remote control over the portable LED lighting system - awesome. The care and time used to capture photos compared to what I do puts me to shame.

The video is pretty long so I jumped around looking for radiation readings but the video is interesting as an underground trip.

Caver turned quarry explorer

lozz
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Newbie

12 years ago

#60

"eastkern" wrote:
I live in a village with one of the highest Radon ratings in the country. I have lived here for forty years and never heard of a death from lung cancer.
In fact if you look at a map of Radonoccurrences in Cornwall it has one of the highest ratings in the UK. But then compare said incidences in the county of Lung Cancer and it is about the lowest in the country.
Scientific evidence is largely based on exposure to Uranium miners over decades and is otherwise very tenuous. It's become an industry based on fear for money making companies. Forget it and breathe it in. I do every day and I'm 69.

I wish you were with me and others (maybe you were) when we broke though into the old East Pool workings from Crofty back in '72/'73, you might change your opinion then.

High concentrations of radon is nasty stuff.....

Lozz.