Gentlemen, all this is really cart before the horse at this time.

First I have to get the Trust set up and see the transfer of land go ahead, all I need is a nod from Wardell or their clients the Crown Estate to go ahead with former, the latter is in their court.

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I don't fully agree about the respective positions of carts and horses.

my suggestion would be, that to transfer a liabilty of this nature without a fully worked out plan of action to follow, would be a case as you suggest.

it does in fact seem that most, if not all, of the respective issues are covered one way or another. However it has taken quite a lengthy thread, to arrive at something which should have been in the first post.

I will be following this with interest.

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I've just been reading the posts on this subject over at ME.

as has been rightly pointed out, some people view this through professional eyes and some, as enthusiastic amateurs.

I really can't add to Simon H's post on this subject at ME. I don't know enough about the specific case to comment, but the general issues are apparent to anyone with suitable experience.

The possible pitfalls are immense, and speaking as a Chartered Engineer with considerable experience of entering, reworking and abandoning derelict mine workings in various contexts, I certainly wouldn't link myself professionally or financially to a project of this scope and nature.

As I mentioned before, I'm sure Wardell's are keeping schtum because in their view, there is no credible strategy, client or authority.

Let's have a little perspective. This is a very large, open working with at least two long-term tenants whose co-operation you have no reason to be assured of. It undoubtedly contains bats, who have legal rights which, like the Peace of God, passeth all understanding. It is apparently much out of favour with EA, is an Ancient Monument - which confers great restrictions and obligations, but no money to pay for them, enthusiastically championed at times by well-connected Ladies Who Lunch - and an SSSI to boot. By way of a finale, it occasionally sheds blocks the size of cars from its roof, without warning.

I would concur with Simon H in advising the utmost caution.

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To be fair, from our dealings with the Crown Estates, they're usually very reasonable - you just have to be aware that their agents will reflect their client's remit, which is to maximise revenue and minimise liability.

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Just a thought....
It has been commented on that my nature is often to do things and then tell people about them afterwards.

I wonder why..........................

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Crown Estates will have a legal responsibility to dispose of an asset, if such it can be called, of this scope and nature, to a credible purchaser.

If there are indeed problems such as it being a severe blight on the local water quality, it will be no defence for them to say that they disposed of the mine to someone who didn't have the resources to even begin to deal with it, and no plan for doing so.

former mining companies, or long-dead 18th century costbook partners, can get away with this, because there is no value in suing someone who can't be found, or whose estate was probated long ago, is insolvent, or who have ceased to trade, or were never located in UK anyway.

CA can't hide behind any of the above.

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If you are looking for an argument Mr Derrickman, sorry you are not going to get one from me, I shall simply unsubscribe from this thread.

I have had informal consultations with the Environment Agency by way of their representative on the Ceredigion Mines Forum, I also have the backing of all of the major interested parties, if you care to read my original posting all of this should be apparent.

At the next meeting I can assure you that I will not need to ask for a vote of confidence.

Exactly what is your problem?

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Forgive my ignorance, but...

Is there not a massive gulf between 'disposal' and 'access agreement'?

I wouldn't think there's a cat's chance in hell of the Crown Estate actually disposing of their interest and I would imagine that Roy is merely looking for an agreement that allows access and limited undertakings to preserve the fabric of the site for academic and bona-fide leisure access?

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Hi Mr Vanoord

There is a history to this.
Representatives of Welsh Mines Preservation Trust and Early Mines Research Group amongst others attended a meeting at the Stoke HQ of Wardell Armstrong acting as mineral agents for the Crown Estates.

In the words of one of the attendees:
“it was one of the most bizarre meetings that I have ever attended in as much as they (Wardells) would not entertain any form of access agreement and would only consider the complete sale of all of the land".
Or words to that effect.

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Me? I don't have a problem. I don't have any connection with the project, or the site, and I've certainly got better things to do than argue with people on web boards.

I've simply made some comments which from past experience, appear pertinent. I see from postings on ME that I'm not the only one to have had similar thoughts.

I shall be most interested to see what transpires.

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Me? I don't have a problem. I don't have any connection with the project, or the site, and I've certainly got better things to do than argue with people on web boards.

I've simply made some comments which from past experience, appear pertinent. I see from postings on ME that I'm not the only one to have had similar thoughts.

I shall be most interested to see what transpires.

Fair enough Sir
No problem at this end either.

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I for one think we should all be behind Roy, in his gallant efforts to secure a future of this mine, (and possibly others like it) ,not bombarding him with criticisms and doom & gloom.

I'm pretty sure Roy has took advice and carefully thought this through, I don't think he is going into this matter with his eyes closed or looking at it through rose tinted glasses.

Why should the water be such a problem at this one particular disused slate mine that is not occuring at over 50 or more similar mines?

I wish you every success with this venture Roy, :thumbup:

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I would wish Roy all the luck he would wish himself.

it's just that I have had past experience of the complex issues surrounding old mine workings, and my experience has tended to be that the difficulties are often under-estimated.


as to the water issue, I would suspect that there are probably the same problems elsewhere, but there is no-one seeking to take over the ownership or lease of the workings, so the problem rests with EA.

if there is a major issue ( cf the Wheal Jane water improvement scheme ) they will act, but mostly they will bide their time

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Just a thought....
It has been commented on that my nature is often to do things and then tell people about them afterwards.

I wonder why..........................

A committee of one gets things done.

Best of luck to you.

Well yes Peter, but it is not quite that simple.

I will have to invite others to join the board of the trust company, otherwise if I were to drop dead or something the company would no one running it and probably end up being struck off by Companies House.

Of course, I will die sometime anyway, we all do. The only thing that is certain in life!

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Like others have said, very best of luck to Roy with his negotiations around Cwmystwyth.

I have to admit this is a topic I tend to keep quiet on. One day I hope to have learnt enough about this game to pass intelligent comment on this sort of discussion, but I don't feel, other than platitudes, I've got a lot to add. Perhaps even one day I will know enough to offer help.

Roy, good luck with it all. And thanks for keeping us updated.

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This is further to my previous postings.
At the last meeting of the Ceredigion Miners Forum I urged everyone who supported my initiative to write to the Crown Estate mineral agents urging action on this matter.
Here is the name of the gentleman dealing with this and the correct address which is reproduced here simply for academic purposes.
Please do not write to him as he will be overwhelmed with correspondence and may well force action on the matter out of shear frustration.
MR J. D. PEARS
WARDELL ARMSTRONG
SIR HENRY DAULTON HOUSE
FORGE LANE
ETRURIA
STOKE ON TRENT
ST1 5BD

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Brakeman,
Cwmystwyth was a Lead Mine,not Slate,and with Lead comes Arsenic,reason why most old Miners never got much past 40yrs,Arsenic Poisoning,thats why the river near the Mine is Dead of Wildlife.

Only recently joined,but have noticed on this thread how the majority ,who have no Real underground experience,are quick to dismiss Derrickman,the one that i can gather ,that has proper Mining Experience.

Only recently joined,but have noticed on this thread how the majority ,who have no Real underground experience,are quick to dismiss Derrickman,the one that i can gather ,that has proper Mining Experience.

That comment is sure to stimulate some interesting debate :lol:

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Ty Gwyn wrote

Cwmystwyth was a Lead Mine,not Slate,and with Lead comes Arsenic,reason why most old Miners never got much past 40yrs,Arsenic Poisoning,thats why the river near the Mine is Dead of Wildlife.

I think dust, lead and poor working conditions would be enough to see off the miners, arsenic doesn't come into it much, as it's unlikely to be present in significant quantities (not like some mines in Cornwall).

As for the river, acidification, zinc and a side order of cadmium will do the job....

Well that's off topic.