Yep, sounds like my neighbour.

https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/chaos-dovestone-reservoir-motorists-flock-18253241?utm_source=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

It's people like this who are going to ruin it for everybody else.....I really don't understand how you can enjoy being around that many people in the current climate.

I dont like being around that many people in any climate 😢

---

I dunno, this seems really messy to me. On the one had it seems official legal restrictions have been lifted for some weeks now.

On the other you have some persuasive arguments that it is still too soon.

I have been giving this some thought and I have decided that for me the trigger will be when campsites re-open and I am permitted to stay overnight on a trip.

Once this happens it can hardly be argued that the national parks and such are not 'open for business' my trip will be of some commercial benefit to the area I am visiting rather than a quick day trip in and out and I will be able to have a more relaxed and enjoyable time of it.

This of course is a purely personal decision and is largely based on my home distance from any area where underground trips or hillwalking is possible.

I have been giving this some thought and I have decided that for me the trigger will be when campsites re-open and I am permitted to stay overnight on a trip.

Good thinking.
For me Wales is the thing. Wales closed English visitors stops me dead in the water. I am not going to visit the Lakes or Nenthead as I would perceive myself adding to a problem, although the vast crowds seem to have gone the same way as the sunshine.

---

I dunno, this seems really messy to me. On the one had it seems official legal restrictions have been lifted for some weeks now.

On the other you have some persuasive arguments that it is still too soon.

I agree that it is really messy, and many people seem to be under the impression, even in the underground world, that it is now 'safe' to proceed as normal when it clearly isn't. It may be less risky, but that's not the same thing. If we get asymptomatic people going underground into venues that are well-used, how does anyone know the time that the virus may persist in areas that might be shared?

The comments made about meat packing/processing plants (cold, damp, hardsurfaces) suggest underground could be quite friendly to the virus. The absence of UV light is also very much in the viruses favour.

---

I have been giving this some thought and I have decided that for me the trigger will be when campsites re-open and I am permitted to stay overnight on a trip.

Good thinking.
For me Wales is the thing. Wales closed English visitors stops me dead in the water. I am not going to visit the Lakes or Nenthead as I would perceive myself adding to a problem, although the vast crowds seem to have gone the same way as the sunshine.

Sorry about the source.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8439877/Wales-travel-restrictions-end-tourism-return-July-says-Drakeford.html 

Why apologise.

Anyway, yes its on the Cambrian Caving Council website. I am not worried about the virus, I work on my own in my 'projects', one site is permanently locked anyway. My day out wont even have me seeing anyone, except through the car windows.

---

Many of places we visit as mine explorers are not very attractive to the general public usually because of the massive piles of waste rock. Most of the places I have been since lockdown ended such as the peak district and Gunnerside are mining areas and over 10 hours I must have passed no more than 15 people.

I have never seen Cwm Croesor or Cwm Orthin very busy either however I only really go places on weekdays to avoid the crowds.

Yes, weekdays.

North Wales is generally very busy weekends, mid Wales just sees the Aberystwyth day trippers and Cwmystwyth is the car cruisers.

Gunnerside weekends is a parking problem with cars along the side of the road past the bus stop and even out of the village. I have found it busy even in winter.

Peak district last Sunday had quite a few people, but late starting. I am staying at home tomorrow and having a day out on Tuesday or Wednesday, see the weather.

---

I dunno, this seems really messy to me. On the one had it seems official legal restrictions have been lifted for some weeks now.

On the other you have some persuasive arguments that it is still too soon.

I agree that it is really messy, and many people seem to be under the impression, even in the underground world, that it is now 'safe' to proceed as normal when it clearly isn't. It may be less risky, but that's not the same thing. If we get asymptomatic people going underground into venues that are well-used, how does anyone know the time that the virus may persist in areas that might be shared?

Well, it seems my self-imposed criteria will be met after the 4th of July so I may well be heading to (probably the Peak) for a trip underground.

I'm thinking a relatively easy and short solo trip would be the thing, I usually wear gloves underground in any case and perhaps some hand sanitiser in the car for when i get back. I may skip the usual drink and snack stop underground - but will still make sure I have some food and drink with me just in case. I don't propose wearing a mask, it's compulsory to wear one where I work and it's unpleasant enough in the office. I'm not keen on being stifled by one when actually exerting myself.

Does anyone think this is a terribly irresponsible plan?

I personally think you are being responsible , I have been on 1 trip with a mate since being allowed to see friends again, I am waiting now till clubs are back up and running hoping to be able to join a club for a cave trip none srt to gain some
More experience as I have only really ever done mines but enjoy crawling So want to get into some cave like systems

---

Does anyone think this is a terribly irresponsible plan?

Sounds reasonable. Bear in mind you’ll probably rub your nose/face sometime along the trip.

I see the main dilemma being activities which are at a higher risk of needing Cave/Mountain Rescue and the added hassle Covid brings to their callouts for the foreseeable future. Granted self rescue is embedded in most sensible underground (and mountain) explorers mindset but even the most ‘planned’ routes could result in a stumble. So RA’s inevitably now need a higher weighting on the consequence axis.

Then there are the knob heads. ::)

Seems reasonable to me, I hate wearing masks because I wear glasses and steam up almost instantly when doing any form of activity (even just walking.)

I think staying away from SRT at the moment is a good idea as I assume this increases the chance of needing rescue teams getting involved - I don't do SRT so this isn't problem for me. I still stand by the fact your more likely to have a car crash on the way to a single than a lifetime of exploring.

My exploring buddy will not come out so I have been planning a few solo trips up the Pennines and Wales when it reopens. I don't tend to venture too far when solo anyway.

Seems reasonable to me.

The only caveat that I would add would be prepared to bail and find another venue if there is someone else in the cave / mine.

SRT may not be that awkward for a rescue as many techniques and specialised bits of equipment exist already, especially in the rope-access industry - granted, always done on two ropes. DCRO got a guy up from the bottom of Titan recently, though it took a long time, obviously. Personally from a rescue/infection scenario, I would think that horizontal caves or mines might be worse, as not all have handy large regular passages to walk down. Any sort of squeeze is a potential nightmare if a stretcher is involved. And tight entrances may suddenly pose a problem they don't normally do.

I'm struggling to consider doing easy sites - as has been pointed out, the trip getting out there may be riskier than the underground - though I generally use the bus, which tends to win most road arguments. But if you add risk of travel to risk of trip, and then the trip itself isn't really very useful other than to say you did it, I can't really see the point.

Even a twisted ankle or a steep path means a Covid-19-compliant call-out, plus all the other retinues that invariably attend these things:

https://derbyshirecro.org.uk/2020/05/30/call-out-414-thors-cave/ 

I'm struggling to consider doing easy sites - as has been pointed out, the trip getting out there may be riskier than the underground - though I generally use the bus, which tends to win most road arguments. But if you add risk of travel to risk of trip, and then the trip itself isn't really very useful other than to say you did it, I can't really see the point.

Even a twisted ankle or a steep path means a Covid-19-compliant call-out, plus all the other retinues that invariably attend these things:

https://derbyshirecro.org.uk/2020/05/30/call-out-414-thors-cave/ 

Whilst it probably still holds true that the most dangerous part of most trips is the car journey I'd speculate that the risk now is pretty much the same as it was before Covid when I was perfectly happy to accept it. From my work related travels traffic seems to be back approaching normal levels so I don't think statistically I'm adding much to any risk to those who might have to deal with the aftermath of an incident.

As for an easy wander around a known site being worthwhile, I guess that's a personal judgement. Perhaps living so far from any areas with mines has a hidden benefit in that the act of going underground remains "special' even at previously visited sites. I've also not visited anywhere so frequently that I don't see or find something new on each visit. Plus there is the element of just being somewhere 'nice' in a similar way that a walk in the woods or along the beach can be rewarding even if a frequently visited and known place.

The issue of seriously inconveniencing rescue teams does give me some pause for thought - of course I imagine every rescue is an inconvenience of some sort and one would always hope to avoid being the cause. I suppose a valid question would be if the latest round of restriction easing has had an effect in bringing the level of disruption a rescue might cause down to more normal levels?

I am currently surface walking, looking at surface features and possible new sites to explore when I feel safe enough. Though it has never happened yet, I would not want to involve rescue teams in a Covid Secure rescue to get me out of trouble.

The limited volume of air in some spaces, coupled with heavy breathing would likely increase the virus count if someone was shedding. Hard surfaces, cool temperatures, high humidity and lack of UV light all seem to allow the virus to survive longer in the environment.
As age is a major risk factor in becoming very unwell and even not making it the fact that I should get my state pension this year is also in my mix of risk analysis.
Remote sites mid week should involve less meetings with others, but you never know who you might bump into!

It won’t be me underground for a little while yet.

I believe if their opening outside and inside carboot sales going into a mine/cave your safer than this even if you was with 2 people in your bubble so I am definitely starting up again it’s very hard to make a decision for anybody and I think everyone just has to make their own decision this time sadly

---

ttxela - I should have pointed out more clearly (I was typing in haste whilst on the phone!), that I was referring to myself considering trips, not whether you should be - I hope you didn't take it the wrong way and sorry if it came across like that. I've done most local sites to death, so I'm trying to concentrate on project work as a priority now. And hopefully doing more surface work soon - though real actual work is finally resurfacing again, so I could be out of action for a while yet anyway 😞