Jose1911
  • Jose1911
  • 50.2% (Neutral)
  • Newbie Topic Starter
7 years ago
Dear all.
I own some land with 3 maybe 4 mine shafts. I know who owns the mine/minerial rights. The question is,is the mine owner responsible for capping if they are fenced off or in dangerous condition?
J
DaveM
  • DaveM
  • 50.2% (Neutral)
  • Newbie
7 years ago
Chalcocite
7 years ago
I was involved in a mine exploration a number of years ago now in North Cornwall. After we had finished our work a hole appeared in mateys field.. We did what we could to fix it underground but the farmer was responsible for the remediation and fencing off of the nearby shaft. Although we capped the shaft as a good gesture.
RAMPAGE
7 years ago
"Jose1911" wrote:

Dear all.
I own some land with 3 maybe 4 mine shafts. I know who owns the mine/minerial rights. The question is,is the mine owner responsible for capping if they are fenced off or in dangerous condition?
J



I would fence them off and put "danger" signs around them, that is the limit of what you are required to do as a "reasonable precaution".

Whether it is you or the mineral owner who should do it... I am pretty sure it is the mineral owner. I would ask with HM Inspectorate of Mines (google them). They will tell you, and if it is the mineral owner they will be forced to deal with it.
Beneath my steely exterior beats the heart of a dashing hero
polo
  • polo
  • 50.2% (Neutral)
  • Newbie
7 years ago
"Jose1911" wrote:

Dear all.
I own some land with 3 maybe 4 mine shafts. I know who owns the mine/minerial rights. The question is,is the mine owner responsible for capping if they are fenced off or in dangerous condition?
J



The answer will be found in the words "I own some land with 3 maybe 4 mine shafts" A series of legislation starting in the 1890's brought about the ability to separate surface land and mineral rights which enabled large estates to be broken up and sold whilst the mineral rights were retained by the vendor who became the "mineral owner".

Review the historic roots of title to your land to ascertain whether the mineral owner sold the liability of say the top 10 or 20 fathoms of minerals to the original surface land purchaser. It is common for the liability to have been transferred but it did not happen in every case. If the liability did transfer then it would also apply to the current surface landowner as "successors in title".
Roy Morton
7 years ago
In Cornwall it's pretty rare that mineral rights would be included in any sale of land or property; The manor of East Cusgarne being a notable exception.
Such rights are generally retained by the original 'Lord of the land' and the largest in Cornwall is of course The Duke of Cornwall aka prince Charles.

Can't have common oiks getting rich in Cornwall ;)

"You Chinese think of everything!"
"But I''m not Chinese!"
"Then you must have forgotten something!"
Buckhill
7 years ago
When inspecting disused coal entries with NCB in the '60s & '70s we worked to the then requirements of the M &Q Act which was to secure them against accidental entry - someone crossing even a simple (if properly maintained) post and wire fence being regared as doing so deliberately. By the end of the '70s we had a policy of filling and capping them - even though the legal requirement had not changed.

The presence of a fence around the shafts on your land suggests that someone has, at some time, taken some steps to prevent accidental entry. I don't think there has been any change requiring them to go further by capping. (The fencing is more than many owners do - if they did many people on this forum woud have to find a new pastime.)

If you are concerned about the condition of the present fence and its ability to prevent accidental entry to the shafts I suggest firstly contacting the mineral owner to discuss your concerns.
RAMPAGE
7 years ago
"Buckhill" wrote:

When inspecting disused coal entries with NCB in the '60s & '70s we worked to the then requirements of the M &Q Act which was to secure them against accidental entry - someone crossing even a simple (if properly maintained) post and wire fence being regared as doing so deliberately. By the end of the '70s we had a policy of filling and capping them - even though the legal requirement had not changed.

The presence of a fence around the shafts on your land suggests that someone has, at some time, taken some steps to prevent accidental entry. I don't think there has been any change requiring them to go further by capping. (The fencing is more than many owners do - if they did many people on this forum would have to find a new pastime.)



You're absolutely right in regards obligation under M&Q, you have to prevent accidental entry and stout fencing with warning/mineshaft signs meets that requirement. There is no need to fill/cap anything unless there are additional circumstances which might warrant it. Such as being right next to an extremely busy footpath popular with children. Morally, even if not legally, you might want to cap it in that situation. A whopping great engine shaft from a major colliery now in the middle of a housing estate is another example where, with reluctance, it might be best to chuck a few scaf-planks over it. Just so the local wildlife can retrieve their footballs without needing to borrow mums washing line and bike light.

If a person falls down the shaft and dies, their NOK, the police or HSE might attempt to prosecute. If the victim fell down the shaft because they climbed over a substantial fence and ignored the clear and obvious signs saying "Danger of Death, Deep Mine Shaft" then that's the end of their prosecution.


Beneath my steely exterior beats the heart of a dashing hero
Karl  Marx
7 years ago
Coz weem in kerrnaww, basically if you dig a hole in the ground it's like hopping a fence into someone else's paddock. Similarly, if you find yourself presented with an already gaping hole in a "here's one I made earlier" fashion, it's essentially a garden gate into someone's manor.
You hear "mineral rights" thrown around quite a lot, but it's really an archaic metaphor for underground real estate. If you go down a mine it is unlawful trespass against the "mineral rights" owner.
Now, expecting the surface landowner to pay for shaft capping is really like asking the highways agency to pay for your front door if you live on a street.
There is a bit of weasel room though as to where the boundary between surface and underground land lays, and this is reflected in your full title deeds or last explicit conveyance. Look for "within", "upon" or "beneath/below" as these detail whether or not surface aggregates (sand, clay, spoil dumps, etc) are reserved from the title. Most land in the county formed part of a manorial and so if you find subtractive conveyance that relates to the relevant manorial it will detail reservations.
I think there is a statute 3ft of shite below surface which the freeholder can play with, however this has only been proved by legal precedent and not hard law. It'll allow you to lay shallow foundations but not bury your victims standing up...

Enough rambling though, the fact of the matter is that in numerous cases it has been proved that the min rights owner has had to pay for remediation work. Occupiers liability act - yes, "occupiers"; this means lease holders as well - requires surface matey to put up adequate fencing.


Refer to your solicitor. Internet forums are full of weirdie beardies (like me) when it's "awfully important & sons" signature that you need.
royfellows
7 years ago
so a scrap car and two dead sheep not good enough for you boyo!

:lol:
My avatar is a poor likeness.
polo
  • polo
  • 50.2% (Neutral)
  • Newbie
7 years ago

If the hole was sunk at the time of the unchanged rights owner today, they are liable for it's remediation if it opens up. The precedent was Tregothnan at Wheal Leisure. If rights have changed, the rights owner is no longer responsible. (But who is?). Also, there is money to be made by a rights owner suing someone for plugging their shaft. I gather something like this happened recently.

What is the relationship between Tregothnan and Wheal Leisure?
Jose1911
  • Jose1911
  • 50.2% (Neutral)
  • Newbie Topic Starter
7 years ago
Hi all,
The mineral rights and mine owner has remained unchanged.
The shaft has not open but has a depression with rock head very close to the base of the depression.
j

Disclaimer: Mine exploring can be quite dangerous, but then again it can be alright, it all depends on the weather. Please read the proper disclaimer.
© 2005 to 2023 AditNow.co.uk

Dedicated to the memory of Freda Lowe, who believed this was worth saving...