Does anyone venturing underground have to have BCA insurance, or is that only for organised groups ? If me & a mate go down a cave, does that constitute an organised group ?

---

As Legal and Insurance officer of CCC I would personally advise it for the cost. It goes with BCA membership and is not available on its own.

It is a good thing to have from a personal point of view if you explore with any group, even an informal one, and is also mandatory for access to a lot of sites.

It is a public liability insurance which covers the individual against claims resulting from the underground activity. You can be an individual member of BCA or a club member.

Unsure what you mean by "have to have", its not a legal requirement but a wise person choice and is required by most Access Controlling Bodies and a lot of landowners.

Link, look under "Membership"
http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php 

---

As far as I understand things, BCA insurance covers the holder against third party claims arising during their underground leisure activities, whether 'organised' or not.

If you go underground with your uninsured mate and he rigs a bad belay (or pokes a rotten stemple) which maims or kills you, you (or your estate) would have to sue him/her for damages.

taking uninsured persons underground is definitely a risk!

MARK

---

It seems sensible. I'll take a look at the BCA website

---

Check your small print.

Just did:

"Any activity approved by the insured, including but not limited to:

Cave, karst and mine research, exploration, surveying, equipment testing, publishing and photography, caving for pastime and bolting, associated pursuits with instructors and other activities relative to the general encouragement of scientific sporting caving and mine research, including the engagement and activities of volunteers involved in the arrangement of conferences and property owners/managers"

Chinese proverb: "Do proper research before posting on internet forum"

Roy Fellows Legal and Insurance Officer, Cambrian Caving Council

---

also, Public Liability insurance is a requirement for delegates at the annual NAMHO conferences, and sorry, this includes mine in 2019.
Some underground sites on the meets list are Welsh Government or NRW with access controlled by Cave Access Ltd inder our respective agreements. Insurance for people wishing to go underground forms part of that agreement with WG and NRW.

---

I agree on that. If mineral rights are in separate ownership then the mine is mineral property not soil landowners. This is the situation at Craig y Dinas where soil landowner is Welsh Government, land is managed by NRW, but minerals which include Upper Silica Mine belongs to my Natural Amenities Ltd.

We all know who owns most of the mineral rights in Cornwall, and a lot of Devon for that matter.

A bit of a can of worms. However, this was not what you implied in your other posting.

Also, the terms of mineral ownership can vary and some soil landowners will have rights which they can of course delegate.
My NAL is mineral owner by severance, other mineral ownerships can be manorial, ancient rights, and possibly some others. It is complicated but much can be learned by reading the relevant property deeds or Land Registry entry which is available for a modest fee to anyone.

---

One question is the insurance void if the individual has no permission to be in a cave or mine .

---

Its a general principal that you cannot contract out of law. The policy is a contract, between the insurers and the insured and as such is subject to UK law, it says this in the policy document.

Permission can be given retroactively, " You didn't ask, but I dont mind you being in there". So there is a grey zone. Also trespass is a civil matter not criminal law.

There also the CROW argument relative to caves on access ground.

One has to remember that the policy is a standard Public Indemnity policy that has been individually tailored for the purpose

As as absolute answer to your question I would have to say "No". Especially if it goes further than trespass and involves forced entry. NAMHO events require the organisers to ensure that relevant permissions are obtained.

Slightly off topic, but there is nothing to physically prevent anyone entering most sites on the CAL schedule, but from the above its easy to see what has been gained from the CAL agreement. NAMHO 2013 saw trips cancelled where permission could not be obtained. NAMHO 2019 is a different ball park.

Hope that all this helps.

---

Thanks for the reply Roy

---

In reply to the O.P.:

Some might say that having either a red, green or blue BCA insurance card is more "Desirable" rather than "Essential", sure there are places and meets where one of the above cards is mandatory, but there are also plenty that don't.

If you decide that at the end of the day a few beers worth of your money for insurance is worth it - then its your punt mate!

---

We have used the green card on various visits to working Mines and quarries
True these managers, have in many cases never seen the card before but, having explained to them what it is about, they seem to pretty pleased that we have gone to the bother of having this insurance and secondly having the wit to carry it about with us.
Hope this helps explain another aspect of why it was worth having this insurance.