I feel the need to make the point that in any confrontation there will be two 'sides' to the story. To arrive at the real truth one would have to look between the two.

I would suggest that anyone who buys either 'side' of the story in its entirety has a pre inclination towards that side.
If not stating the obvious

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I feel the need to make the point that in any confrontation there will be two 'sides' to the story. To arrive at the real truth one would have to look between the two.

I would suggest that anyone who buys either 'side' of the story in its entirety has a pre inclination towards that side.
If not stating the obvious

Roy, you're quite correct, IMHO: I don't wish to give the impression that I'm not willing to hear the other side, BUT, to look at the story so far, the cases put have been a trifle one-sided. The police, the government, much of the press and the BBC all arranged on one side; to be fair not many 'respected', independent, contributors stepped forward to give the miners' side. Basically, back to an analogy with Hillsboro' - the same sort of smearing by the same parties.

There were stupid acts by miners during the strike, pushing a concrete block off a motorway bridge for example but it doesn't nullify the state broadcaster re-editing the charge at Orgreave to show the events in reverse order or to hide the fact there was a 'hit-list' of pits to close.

BUT, to look at the story so far, the cases put have been a trifle one-sided. The police, the government, much of the press and the BBC all arranged on one side;

Outside of the mining communities I would suspect one could add the general public to that list?

Agree, the BBC has always followed the party line as they are the official Government mouthpiece.

I think we probably on the same hymn sheet on this one.

I have to admit that I tend to feel sympathy with ordinary people whichever side they on, they're always the 'cannon fodder'.

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the below link shows how yet another conservative government is seen to be biased and misleading, both sides of the house are represented in the debate , with members both saying how ashamed and disgusted they are with this government,

the point of the link is not to expand this debate into a debate around the eu but to show how a government will deceive its own people for its own political agenda ,and as it happens another running scared conservative government, it also shows there are MPs who will publicly denounce a government who are doing wrong, when a debate is forced upon the government by the people,

if you want you can relate the coal industries demise and the eu as a on going political agenda , both topics separated by some 30 years yet both related by energy and environmental policies driven by the eu and implemented by the uk government,

the debate is a long one with almost unanimous condemnation by MPs apart from a nationalist ,

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/93a979e7-4c8a-4d3f-89b1-529df4b4cad4 

I feel the need to make the point that in any confrontation there will be two 'sides' to the story. To arrive at the real truth one would have to look between the two.

I would suggest that anyone who buys either 'side' of the story in its entirety has a pre inclination towards that side.
If not stating the obvious

A fair point, however I do find it rather hard to be objective about 80s policing having been beaten up in the back of a police van for the heinous crime of walking down a street late at night whilst in possession of long hair (as the officer said at the time "we don't like you f***ing hippies).

Possible fallout from the Tate Labianca killings?

I have never been ill treated by the police, all of my contact with them has been fairly positive.

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I was at Sheffield Polytechnic (now Hallam University) doing a Communication Arts degree during the strike, and a team from the Poly were very active in shooting video of the strike and working with the campaign, though I wasn't involved personally. Coming from Rotherham, I was well aware of both sides of the mining industry, and was quite relieved to be partially away from all that by the time I started there.

But much of the Orgreave battle was captured on video by the team, and I remember the ruckus when the 'official' news broadcasts were shown, as they were very selectively edited indeed, removing much of the contentious police behaviour, but leaving in the miner's. Obviously many people at the Poly had by now seen the rushes that had been shot and were in the process of being logged and edited, and the disparity was clear to all. I'm sure this footage was offered to news organisations at the time, but it would be many, many years before any of it was actually broadcast - probably on one of the Channel 4 progs I think.

A mate of mine was actually on Sheffield Parkway stuck in a traffic jam, as this quasi-medieval farce wended its way across all six lanes. He said if you'd had banjo music playing in the background it would have made a great comedy sketch. But two large groups of angry men who hate each other, gathered together in a large field with no restrictions, are always going to have a punch-up, no matter what the moral arguments are.

The whole episode has been one big bad vibe around these parts ever since, and the police were generally mistrusted well before Hillsborough. But both incidents are as much about tribal loyalty, flocking behaviour, hysteria and the inevitable reduced capacity for independent thought as they are about politics, control and worker's disenfranchisement. Remember Ibrox stadium in 1971.

Just don't do large crowds, ever, if you like being safe. They're fundamentally dangerous structures. Though a crowd on a bridge is probably the most dangerous structure. There was a famous incident in Baghdad a few years back, when someone shouted 'b*mb' on the bridge over the Tigris, during a massive religious procession with about a million people actually on the bridge - it was jammed solid.

I saw aerial footage from a US helicopter of a 'crater' appearing around the guy who shouted it, as everyone just ran sideways, and hundreds fell off the edge of the bridge, just like the Penny Falls at a fairground, except these all drowned. They didn't even need to use explosives.

I was a young teenager at the time of the miners strike and although I remember seeing a lot of coverage on the news for a youngster in rural Cambridgeshire it was like something happening in a distant land.

I will say though that despite being brought up to respect the Police the experiences I have had with them as an adult have all been negative. At best they have been unhelpful, disinterested and arrogant and at worst in one case downright abusive. I'm sure there are many thoroughly decent Policemen and Woman doing their best in a difficult job but one struggles to form a balanced view in the light of personal experience and as a collective they have lost much of the initial respect I may have had for them and I would welcome anything that holds them to account.

I would be cautious of judging the police as a whole solely on their obedience to their political masters.

The thing about the police is that however much you dislike them, or whatever grudges from the past you may have against them, there could be a time when you will be bloody glad to see them.

Something to think about.
;D

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A few years back they were most effective in their response to an attempted break in, 4 cars and a dog van, neighbours thought someone had been murdered!
Court system was a bit of a let down though.

I would be cautious of judging the police as a whole solely on their obedience to their political masters.

the police are governed by laws just as every one else set down by parliament, they should not be taking orders from any political persuasion, or masters, if it contradicts the laws of the land, a inquiry into the police and there handling of certain instances during the miners strike, it was not just the S Y police involved during the strike many forces were drafted to hot spots,and allegations of other groups eg the army,a good proportion of the whole , was used at various times during the strike,

as far as the police are concerned there whole attitude to policing has changed, to some thing that borders totalitarian in nature, aggressive and defensive.
particularly in the rural area i know live

The thing about the police is that however much you dislike them, or whatever grudges from the past you may have against them, there could be a time when you will be bloody glad to see them.

Something to think about.
;D

Amen to that, it is pointless deriding the police for their actions in the 70's as it is very much down to individual members commanding the force as to how they act in such a situation, if they are going to 'tow the party line' no amount of public condemnation is going to stop them. However I would rather rely on officers having the ability to use their common sense in similar situations, if they have half a brain they will usually avoid confrontation instead of provoking it. But you do get a few b*stards in all walks of life.

The thing about the police is that however much you dislike them, or whatever grudges from the past you may have against them, there could be a time when you will be bloody glad to see them.

Something to think about.
;D

Amen to that, it is pointless deriding the police for their actions in the 70's as it is very much down to individual members commanding the force as to how they act in such a situation, if they are going to 'tow the party line' no amount of public condemnation is going to stop them. However I would rather rely on officers having the ability to use their common sense in similar situations, if they have half a brain they will usually avoid confrontation instead of provoking it. But you do get a few b*stards in all walks of life.

True enough, perhaps I have just been unlucky over the years...........every time :confused:

I suspect that there are still ex mining communities that are still split because of what happened during the strike. Miner's using threats and intimidation against other miners. Families split, friends set against friends. I doubt many of those will want to remember it.

I can't disagree about the points made regarding the police etc, but I can't see an enquiry achieving anything other that producing a large bill for the taxpayer.

I must say that I am enjoying this thread.

Most of the events discussed including Orgreave / Hillsborough / Beanfied are contentious issues because they are surrounded in a fog of ambiguity. I wonder if this would be the case if these events took place today given that more or less everybody is carrying a mobile capable of taking photos or video with a capability of posting very rapidly on the interweb? Does universal access to the internet make abuses of power harder to hide and therefore less likely to happen?

I would be cautious of judging the police as a whole solely on their obedience to their political masters.

Agreed. My own experience of the policing in '84 at a "working" pit was a long way off the hype shown in the media. Coppers (not wearing ASPMM T-shirts!) at times treat pickets in the pit canteen as they were making a good bit more due to the strike. The only NUM member falling foul of the law was the COSA idiot who accelerated and drove at a picket who tried, politely, to gesture for him to stop in order to have a word. Not a wise move when the local Inspector is wth his men and up till then having a laugh with the pickets.

(I was, by the way, not an NUM member)
.

I must say that I am enjoying this thread.

Most of the events discussed including Orgreave / Hillsborough / Beanfied are contentious issues because they are surrounded in a fog of ambiguity. I wonder if this would be the case if these events took place today given that more or less everybody is carrying a mobile capable of taking photos or video with a capability of posting very rapidly on the interweb? Does universal access to the internet make abuses of power harder to hide and therefore less likely to happen?

good question, my thoughts are unless your taking part then your less likely than ever to get near a incident , even a simple car collision sees a road closed for hours with no one allowed any were near, if your filming at the incident like in protests in london over recent years they will make it almost impossible to film or confiscate because they say its evidence . yet they rely more and more on recording your every move, here were i live every market town and lots of back road/main road junctions have cameras pointing in both directions monitoring your movement , a camera does not prevent crimes, at best some times it catches the crime,

I greatly doubt that anything would be achieved apart from aggravating old wounds at great expense.

Thucydides wrote, 2500 years ago, of the impossibility of gathering a consistent account of a battle from eyewitness accounts. Caesar said the same, and an attempt to produce an account of Waterloo from the same sources produced numerous contradictions and omissions.

Look at the literature of the two World Wars - there a numerous examples of what are best described as "urban legends" repeatedly offered as personal testimony.

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