Peter Burgess
9 years ago
On the old 6-in and 25-in maps I can see lots of small open pits in the Church Knowle area. So are you saying chalk marl was also dug underground there?
Peter Burgess
Boy Engineer
9 years ago
From Peter's link:
Quote:

The psychological factor refers to the collective thoughts of people in the area a sinkhole appears. If there are many negative thoughts and thoughts of harming others among the people of that locality, negative vibrations are emitted into the environment. As a result powerful negative energies pick up on these negative thoughts and hence have to work less to infuse negative vibrations in an area and thereby are able to create such sinkholes more easily.



I'd always thought that the good folk of St Albans would be relatively upbeat, living in the prosperous south. What hope for the denizens of our northern provinces? Is this where the term 'sink estate' comes from? ( 🙂 added just so people know this is meant to be funny).
Dr J
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9 years ago
"Peter Burgess" wrote:

You can learn a lot on the internet! I'm glad we finally have a proper explanation.

http://www.spiritualresearchfoundation.org/spiritual-research/world-problems/what-causes-sinkholes?gclid=CPTOvPO1xMgCFUKg2wodO-QH3g 



'Bout as accurate as everything the BGS have been saying and explaining from the start...even despite all the evidence to the contrary :glare:
Over-ground, underground, wombling free...
Aztelquian
9 years ago
"Peter Burgess" wrote:

On the old 6-in and 25-in maps I can see lots of small open pits in the Church Knowle area. So are you saying chalk marl was also dug underground there?


Possibly, although it could just be chalk for the limekiln over that way - I know think I know the pits you mean but I meant just east of the castle under the south edge of Challow Hill. Eddie Moss who used to live in Challow Farm there told me it was marl that was dug out but didn't know how old the mine was or exactly where the entrance was. I haven't been able to find out any historical information about it.
Peter Burgess
9 years ago
I see there is a pond and probably a spring that feeds it at Challow Farm. What was done at Folkestone, and was considered at Reigate but not implemented, was a horizontal well driven into the chalk marl from which boreholes in the roof tapped the overlying saturated lower chalk. I imagine the dip at Swanage is quite steep, so it may only have been necessary to drive an adit through the chalk marl into the aquifer to produce a flow of water. I wonder if this might be what the chap recalled?
Aztelquian
9 years ago
The general angle of the strata in the Purbeck Hills (and in the stone beds at Swanage off to the south) angles upward from the north to the south and each ends where it pokes out at the surface - I'm not a geologist but I'd imagine it would be far better off the other way round or there'd be very little to collect and it would tend to run away deeper into the hill.

I had no idea of what marl itself was used for but it seems to have been used as a form of fertilizer! Maybe that's what the mine was for.
Ty Gwyn
9 years ago
Depending where in the country,Marl has been used for fertilising,pottery and brick making,depending again on its calcium carbonate make up with its clay content.
Peter Burgess
9 years ago
If, as seems likely, this was the lowest bed of the Chalk formation that was being worked, and as the beds dip steeply, it is easy to see how it would not be long before the easily dug parts of the bed would be exhausted and it might then be worked in a steeply dipping mine-working. Then it wouldn't be long before the water level was reached, so any underground workings here would be pretty shallow.
tiger99
9 years ago
You mat recall that, only a few years ago, there was a sinkhole in Hemel Hempstead, not very far away. I don't live there any more, now in Harrow Weald, but now not far from the Pinner chalk mines.

I have owned this house for some time, and, one hot, dry, summer, the lodger left the garden hose running all night. The water was disappearing down a crack in the dry earth, not leaving even a significant wet spot. The BGS map viewer says London Clay, but of course that is almost impervious, so the cover over the chalk beneath may be very thin. I wonder what state that may be in, possibly mined at one time. There is no easy way of knowing. Not that I am worried, because nearer the house water will not disappear so easily, and I suspect something less permeable lies below.

I suspect that we will be hearing much more of sinkholes in this general area, or indeed around the outer periphery of London.
Dr J
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9 years ago
"tiger99" wrote:

You mat recall that, only a few years ago, there was a sinkhole in Hemel Hempstead, not very far away.



Again, in reality, was not a sinkhole i.e. natural feature...chalk mine collapse instead, in area of loooooong history of clay-working, chalk burning...just media and BGS not having a clue of reality :glare:


Over-ground, underground, wombling free...
crickleymal
9 years ago
"Peter Burgess" wrote:

You can learn a lot on the internet! I'm glad we finally have a proper explanation.

http://www.spiritualresearchfoundation.org/spiritual-research/world-problems/what-causes-sinkholes?gclid=CPTOvPO1xMgCFUKg2wodO-QH3g 



Excellent. One of the funniest things I've read recently
Malc.
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Vintage and classic or just plain Jurassic
All words to describe me.
tiger99
9 years ago
Dr J,

It is good to be correct and precise, and I agree that it was a chalk mine collapse, and the definition of a "sink hole" would originally have related to an entirely natural phenomenon.

However the term "sink hole" has been used, incorrectly, for many years, and as such may have become a permanent part of the vocabulary of mine collapses. That, like it or not (and I usually don't) is how language evolves, and, sadly, becomes less precise in many cases. So I think we are stuck with it as far as the press are concerned. But I will try to do better next time.

Meanwhile, we have an example from the past.

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=56.1273&lon=-3.7749&layers=168 

We have "Tibby Ramsay's Sink" (note that there is a gap in the row of council houses, but not quite as big as the original sink hole! Don't buy one!) and "Highlandman's Sink". Both are filled in, and appear as rough ground nowadays, but for many years they were open and called "sinks" by the Ordnance Survey. Now they are in an area of extensive shallow coal mining, which may be assumed to be the cause, but I am now wondering if they are in fact natural sink holes, limestone strata certainly being present.

But across the river in Bo'ness, there were phenomena called "sits", when the strata above a mine working gave way, and "sat down", as in Hemel and St. Albans.

X. Two alarming subsidences have occurred in Bo'ness during the last half-century. They have been described by Mr. Cadell as follows :- "One Sunday evening about thirty years ago, as a local preacher was addressing a meeting on the subject of the fall of the Tower of Siloam in the Old Town Hall below the Clock Tower, and close to the harbour, the congregation were startled by an uncomfortable feeling as if the floor of the building was subsiding beneath them. No active calamity happened, although a terrible danger was very near, and a kind Providence rewarded the faith of the worshippers and permitted them quietly to leave the building after the close of the service. Next day investigations showed that a huge hole 60 feet deep had formed just under the floor, owing to the giving way of the roof of the Wester Main Waste. In a short time the tower began to sink, so as to necessitate its demolition by the authorities. A small shaft was subsequently sunk to ascertain the nature of the cavity, and many had an opportunity of going down and wandering through the old workings about 50 feet below the surface. The seam was about 10 feet thick, and the old miners had worked it in large square pillars, with beautifully dressed faces and an excellent roof. The surface, however, was so near that the thin roof at places had fallen in, and one of the 'sits' had taken place right under the Town Hall. This hole was solidly packed with stone when the Clock Tower was rebuilt.

http://www.scottishmining.co.uk/479.html 

So less than 10 miles from "Tibby Ramsay's Sink", a mine collapse was called a "sit". Most curious....

Unfortunately these features were too transitory to make it into the OS maps, so we can't tell what they would have been called.
Peter Burgess
9 years ago
the proper term is crown hole. Just as easy to say as sink hole!
pwhole
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9 years ago
I'm loving the Spiritual Research Foundation's site - quite literally gobsmacking examples of belief systems at work. And I'm technically a Catholic 😉
BertyBasset
9 years ago
Ha, ha. That site's going to keep me amused tonight. Remind me to get some cow urine on the way home.

http://www.spiritualresearchfoundation.org/spiritual-healing/gomutra-cow-urine 
tiger99
9 years ago
Thank you Peter, crown hole it is!
Boy Engineer
9 years ago
Quote:

Ha, ha. That site's going to keep me amused tonight.



Me too. Beats Casualty hands down, although not a particularly tough challenge. Each to their own though.
skimble

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